[2011.07.23] 亚拉巴马移民法，自“负”盈亏

引用 11mango 2011-7-27 15:54

THERE are few immigrants in Alabama, and even fewer who are there illegally. Roughly 3% of the state’s population is foreign-born, compared with 12.5% nationwide, and many of those people are legal immigrants. So in June, when Alabama passed the nation’s most draconian anti-immigration law, it struck many observers as a bit of an overreaction.

亚拉巴马州的移民数量可谓屈指可数，非法移民者更乃寥寥无几。以全国范围视之，国外出生人口占总人口12.5%（其中多为非法移民），而该州这一比重仅为3%。7月，亚拉巴马州通过迄今美国最严厉移民法，观察者无不为此感到震惊，纷纷表示该法案有点“过度”。

1.屈指可数，参考网上例句，是指数量真的真的很少，少到几乎真的“屈指”就可数出，而且多是用来指比较突出的人或事物
2.“乃”改为“是”岂不更通顺？
3.“以”全国范围视之，感觉不通顺，或者就作“从全美来看”
4.so,感觉应该在译文中体现出来，这样衔接才更自然，“因此，7月阿拉巴马州通过迄今美国最严厉移民法时，—————。”


Frustrated by long federal inaction, several states have taken immigration into their own hands in recent years. The Alabama law imitates those in some respects. Like Arizona’s, it allows police to ask people about their immigration status when questioning or arresting them. As in neighbouring Georgia, the penalties for employers who hire undocumented workers will be stiffened. But the Alabama law goes much further than either. It bars people from giving lifts in their cars to undocumented immigrants, or doing them various other favours. Because of poor phrasing, it might even keep some legal migrants out of state universities. It also requires schools to determine the legal status of pupils’ parents. That is startling; it could discourage parents from enrolling their American-born children.

联邦政府层面综合改革迟迟不能推进，数州失望过后于近年开始自行立法。 多次借得“他山之石”，阿拉巴马州移民法终以告成。同于临州亚利桑那，警方对非法移民者盘查时，后者若不能提供有效身份，有权将其拘留。一于乔治亚州，雇主在知情情况下雇用非法移民将面临严罚。较之二州，阿拉巴马州移民法有过之而无不及：居民不得让非法移民搭便车，不得给予其他类似帮助；学校需审核入校学生父母合法身份；甚者，该法案蹩脚的行文规定，禁止非法移民进入州内大学就读。惊哉！且盖其法案，某些非法移民者可能放弃送其生于美国的子女到当地学校就读。

1.第一句，好！
2.”临"，错别字；这句最好加上“新法允许”，衔接更好
3.“盘查”，漏译“arresting”
4.“一于”，好像中文很少这么说
5. goes much further 用“有过之而无不及”来表达不太合适，much further 可以用">>"这个数学符号表示，而“有过之而无不及”则是">="
6.请问为什么将顺序调整呢？
7.Because of poor phrasing, it might even keep some legal migrants out of state universities. 试译：由于该法案措辞模糊，甚至还有可能禁止非法移民入读州立大学。
8."盖"在古汉语里可表示“大概，可能”，也可承接上文，表示原因，但是感觉在这么说不通

One of the primary complaints about the new law is pragmatic: if you are going to have illegal immigrants, it would be best if they were not undereducated, vulnerable, and afraid of the cops. “I would like people to come forward and report serious crimes,” says Mary Bauer, the legal director for the Montgomery-based Southern Poverty Law Centre (SPLC). “I think that’s in my interest.”
此法案一出，众说纷纭，其中就“可操作性”讨论尤甚：只要非法移民受过教育，身心强壮，不畏警察，允许他们留下也未尝不可。南方贫困问题法律中心坐落于蒙哥马利市，其法务总监玛丽•保尔表示：“若有民众找我反映恶行重罪，此正合我意”
1.感觉这里的not还是只指的“not undereducated”，和后面的vulneralbe, afraid of cops 并列，后面两个特点使得非法移民易于管理，所以留在美国境内也无妨
2.这句话和后面一句太分散了，主题完全不同。“蒙哥马利市南方贫困问题法律中心法务总监”可能更好
        
The other main issue is that parts of the law, at least, may be unconstitutional. Earlier this month the SPLC, along with several other civil-rights groups, filed a lawsuit. One plaintiff, Matt Webster, is adopting two undocumented boys. Federal law allows that, but the children do not gain legal status until several years after the adoption is completed. In the meantime, if the law takes effect on September 1st as scheduled, Mr Webster would not be allowed to drive his children to school.
法案中至少部分条款涉及违宪，该话题也是讨论的焦点。7月上旬，南方贫困问题法律中心与其他数个民权团体一道递上诉状。韦伯斯特是其中一名原告，正打算收养两名已在美的非法移民儿童。尽管联邦法允许该做法，但收养期间两个孩子皆无法获得合法身份。与此同时，若新法案于9月1日如期实行，届时韦伯斯特先生就不能送二子上学。
1.“several years after”，不是收养期间。这句可以译为“但直到收养结束后几年两个孩子才可获得合法身份”
2.“开车”送儿子上学

引用 林忆纾 2011-7-27 19:13

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Republicans, who control both chambers of the state legislature and hold all the statewide offices, could hardly vote against it without looking like liberals

这句还是不通，不知如何进行标注，有何见解？

引用 bluedpiggy 2011-7-27 22:10

本帖最后由 bluedpiggy 于 2011-7-27 22:49 编辑

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我认为这句话说的是6月时的周内投票的内幕啦关于最后一段，我把在临帖的点评copy paste来，仅供参考啦：

最后一段，其实关键点是bill和law的天差地别，英美人士绝不会搞错这两个词的，注意哪句用bill，哪句用law，意思就清楚多啦。这段的正确理解需要一定美国政治背景。州立法案（state bill），写好以后（once written），要经过州立法机构投票（state legislature），通过后才能成为州立法律（state law）；其后州立法律可以被联邦（federal courts）判决无效或禁止，此后如果该州认为必要还可以向高院（Supreme Court）上诉以求驳回联邦判决（如Arizona前不久就是这么搞的）。而republicans一般被认为是conservative，不是liberal，一般是要支持诸如严苛移民法案的。这次，Alabama以Mike Hubbard的一撮人，抽风搞了这么个法案bill，尽管该州并不需要这样严苛的立法，但在state legislature投票时，由于多数派的共和党人不想被认为是liberals，所以很难投反对票could hardly vote against the bill，才导致在六月，这项法案成为法律。此后，联邦一定会判无效，这个法律最后也不会实施。Alabama州共和党最终可以跳出来说我们也在做事，但是之所以成为无用功都是联邦政府干预的后果（victims of federal meddling）。这些都是政治politics，不是政策 (policy)。

希望以上有用，呵呵。

引用 bluedpiggy 2011-7-27 22:34

本帖最后由 bluedpiggy 于 2011-7-27 22:54 编辑

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Once the bill was written, Republicans, who control both chambers of the state legislature and hold all the statewide offices, could hardly vote against it without looking like liberals. A setback from the courts would save Alabama the cost and trouble of full implementation, without embarrassing anyone. In fact, Republicans could claim to be victims of federal meddling.我觉得这三句你基本意思都翻到了，我来揪其他几处：

1）So in June, when Alabama passed the nation’s most draconian anti-immigration law, it struck many observers as a bit of an overreaction.
June翻译成“7月”，是笔误吧？

2）Because of poor phrasing, it might even keep some legal migrants out of state universities. It also requires schools to determine the legal status of pupils’ parents. That is startling; it could discourage parents from enrolling their American-born children.
原：学校需审核入校学生父母合法身份；甚者，该法案措辞模糊，禁止非法移民进入州内大学就读。惊哉！且因其法案，某些非法移民者可能放弃送其生于美国的子女到当地学校就读。
评：两个问题：（1）it might even的“可能性”的口吻没有翻译出来，直接说“禁止非法移民进入州内大学就读”好像是已经明令禁止了，其实不是这样，显得不够严谨；（2）“需要审核父母合法身份”是“某些非法移民者可能放弃送其生于美国的子女到当地学校就读”的原因，如原译作调整语序之后，因果关系就被抹杀了。

3）One of the primary complaints about the new law is pragmatic
原：此法案一出，众说纷纭，其中就“可操作性”讨论尤甚：
评：pragmatic和feasible意思不同，pragmatic着眼于成果是否务实，solving problems in a practical and sensible way rather than by having fixed ideas or theories （实用的；讲求实效的；务实的），一个法案可以具有“可操作性”但不见得pragmatic。

4）not vulnerable是"不容易受袭击的"，不是independent生活独立.

5）but the children do not gain legal status until several years after the adoption is completed.
原：但收养期间两个孩子皆无法获得合法身份。
评：until several years after漏译了，使得句意有偏差。

6）In Alabama, it might even be tacitly welcome.
原：就阿拉巴马州来讲，该法案甚至会得到默许。
评：这里的"it"，指得是the fact that such law may be struck down，而不是such law。原译把民意搞反了。

引用 林忆纾 2011-7-28 07:02

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学了一年美国社会与文化文化。。。一腔热血来着。。。就闷着头来翻了。。

关于Bill和Law解释的太详细了，受益匪浅！！

引用 林忆纾 2011-7-28 07:13

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1. 改！
2. 也改！
3. 再改！是不是说的就是feasible 和pragmatic之间的区别呢？
4.我之前翻译的是if they were not "undereducated, vulnerable, and afraid of cops" 后来和朋友讨论后，觉得not直接管undereducated,vulnerable比较好，而害怕cops另算一个意思；毕竟政府都喜欢有点文化素养的，生活独立的，同时又遵守社会秩序的移民。
再者，vulnerable一开始翻译和您一样（从racial profiling时，心里能够承受得的住歧视），可是，怎样叫“不容易受攻击”呢？vulnerable按照个人理解就是那些远远摆脱社会底层，基本能自理，不给生活社区, 社会添麻烦的人。
5. 恩，我理解错误！感谢指正！
6.改正！

--------------------------------
此外，还有一个小小的问题想问，如果racial profiling合法化，那么会不会有人用Hate Crime来fight back？

引用 bluedpiggy 2011-7-28 07:29

本帖最后由 bluedpiggy 于 2011-7-28 07:49 编辑

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vulnerable的翻译，我有点抠啦，它大概是说这个人各方面都挺强，不容易受到攻击、或者说不容易让坏人想攻击它，比如你可以说近代中国军政孱弱，就很vulnerable，或者一个美女，夜里一个人穿着短裙走大街上，虽然够独立，不过也很vulnerable。

racial profiling决不会合法化，至少以当前美国的政治开放情况，不会允许racial profiling，或者说绝不准许这样的提法。事实上，现在的移民法案基本出发点是保护本国劳工，但之所以不通过恰恰是因为在执行上有导致racial profiling的可能。racial profiling绝不是法案的议题，反而是任何法案一定要试图避免的东西。上任了新黑人总统，美国政治不会走上racism的老路，实际上，在现在美国社会，说一个人racism是很严重的指控和批评。

那么假如有什么法律可能产生某种程度的racism，会不会有hate crime？一般来讲，这要看被压迫种族的实力和上诉途径。毕竟hate crime不是解决问题的方法，只会让种族冲突的状况更糟。只有被压迫种族实力够强且正常上诉途径不通，hate crime甚至暴力革命才有可能发生。然而美国社会，人民视racism为大敌，任何一名律师、一家电视台，都乐于打着anti-racism的旗号反对某项政府法令提高知名度，所以纯粹因racism产生hate crime，基本只有神经不正常的psychopath才做的出来。

引用 林忆纾 2011-7-28 11:53

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记得当时在学校图书馆里看了一下午Congress Digest, 有一期说的就是Hate Crime, 貌似民主党人主要的argument是Hate Crime很难定义，没法根据某人的言语来定罪。

就racial profiling还有一个蛮有意思的解释，我问学校外教，他的解释是，“如果回到新大陆发现时期，难道印第安人要求每一位登上这里的人出示证明么。。。”
后来才知道，这位外教以前就是在美国那边搞lobby的。。。。

引用 yannanchen 2011-8-4 02:11

本帖最后由 yannanchen 于 2011-8-4 21:20 编辑

解题：题目来自
Et in Arcadia ego=The literal word-for-word translation of the phrase is "I too (was there) in Arcadia".

题目直译就是 我到过阿拉巴马。这里的我就是死神。意即 死神降临阿拉巴马。


"Et in Arcadia ego" is a Latin phrase that most famously appears as the title of two paintings by Nicolas Poussin (1594–1665). They are pastoral paintings depicting idealized shepherds from classical antiquity, clustering around an austere tomb. The more famous second version of the subject, measuring 87 by 120 centimetres (34.25 x 47.24 in), is in the Louvre, Paris, and also goes under the name "Les bergers d'Arcadie" ("The Arcadian Shepherds").

It has been highly influential in the history of art.


While the phrase "et in arcadia ego" is a nominal phrase with no finite verb, it is a well-formed construction because substantive and copular verb omission is perfectly acceptable in Latin. Pseudohistorians unaware of that aspect of Latin grammar have concluded that the sentence is incomplete, missing a verb, and have speculated that it represents some esoteric message concealed in a (possibly anagrammatic) code. In The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln, under the false impression that "et in arcadia ego" was not a proper Latin sentence, proposed that it is an anagram for I! Tego arcana dei, which translates to "Begone! I keep God's secrets", suggesting that the tomb contains the remains of Jesus or another important Biblical figure. They claimed that Poussin was privy to this secret and that he depicted an actual location. The authors did not explain why the tomb depicted in the second version of the painting should contain this secret while the distinctly different one in the first version presumably does not. Ultimately, this view is dismissed by art historians.



“Et in Arcadia Ego …” — These words may have first appeared in a painting by Il Guercino (c.1618) of the same name. Throughout the Renaissance, this phrase was used as a sort of code word for “the underground stream,” an invisible college of kindred souls who secretly shared their esoteric knowledge with one another, passing it around Europe via a network of secret societies and mystery schools, often utilizing its arcane symbolism in works of art and literature. Such symbolism shows up, for instance, in the works of Rene d’Anjou, Giordano Bruno, Leonardo da Vinci, Nicholas Poussin, and many others. The authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail(Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln) describe thusly the symbolism of the underground stream



The phrase “Et in Arcadia Ego” is normally translated from the Latin, “And I am in Arcadia,” or “I am even in Arcadia.” The “I” is supposed to be death, and since Arcadia is the Greek conception of Paradise, it is presumed to mean that death is everywhere, even in Paradise. The reason for this is that in the art and literature of the period in which the phrase “Et in Arcadia Ego” was used or referenced in some way, it was almost always associated with a tomb of some sort, and usually with a skull as well. For example, a skull can be found in Guercino’s Et in Arcadia Ego bearing a mysterious hole on its left side. (1) The phrase was inscribed, in code, on the gravestone of Marie de Blanchefort, whose grave at the church at Rennes-le-Chateau Berenger Sauniere is believed to have successfully plundered of some treasure. Nicholas Poussin, who’s painting The Shepherds of Arcadia is so central to the mystery of Rennes-le-Chateau and, therefore, Dagobert’s Revenge, depicted in that painting a group of shepherds pointing to a tomb that was inscribed with the phrase “Et in Arcadia Ego.” This was believed by Henry Lincoln to depict a tomb that, until recently, still existed in the region of Rennes-le-Chateau. But the authors of The Tomb of God: The Body of Jesus and the Solution to a 2000-Year-Old Mystery (Richard Andrews and Paul Schellenberger) think that the real tomb which Poussin was alluding to is not the one that Henry Lincoln found, but one that they say is buried between the twin peaks of nearby Mt. Cardou, which they believe to be the tomb of the one and only Jesus Christ. Their interpretation of the word “Arcadia” – specifically in the context of that phrase – is reached by breaking the word down phonetically, and then translating, not just the letters, but the sounds from the Latin, thereby arriving at the result, “the tomb of God.” They write:


http://quintessentialpublications.com/twyman/?page_id=30

引用 yannanchen 2011-8-4 02:38

Because of poor phrasing, it might even keep some legal migrants out of state universities.
state universities指的是州立大学。

引用 yannanchen 2011-8-4 03:16

One of the primary complaints about the new law is pragmatic: if you are going to have illegal immigrants, it would be best if they were not undereducated, vulnerable, and afraid of the cops. “I would like people to come forward and report serious crimes,” says Mary Bauer, the legal director for the Montgomery-based Southern Poverty Law Centre (SPLC). “I think that’s in my interest.”此法案一出，众说纷纭，其中就“务实性”讨论尤甚：只要非法移民受过教育，不易遭袭，遵纪守法，允许他们留下也未尝不可。蒙哥马利市南方贫困问题法律中心法务总监玛丽•保尔表示：“若有民众找我反映恶行重罪，此正合我意”
评论： 所谓的务实性指的是， 既然非法移民是不可避免的现实问题， 既然无论如何非法移民都存在（if you are going to have illegal immigrants,）如果他们不是受教育程度低下， 不是轻易就会被骗受欺， 不是害怕警察报案迟疑，那岂不最好？
      

引用 yannanchen 2011-8-4 03:37

Once the bill was written, Republicans, who control both chambers of the state legislature and hold all the statewide offices, could hardly vote against it without looking like liberals. A setback from the courts would save Alabama the cost and trouble of full implementation, without embarrassing anyone. In fact, Republicans could claim to be victims of federal meddling.一旦该法案成文，控制州立法机构和本州所有办公机关的共和党员，很难在既投反对票情况下又装作非自由派分子。若新法律部分遭否决，亚拉巴马反到可以免于全面推行该法案的巨额开支和麻烦，也没人脸上挂不住。同时，就算新法被判违宪，共和党人也可称皆联邦政府干预之作。
评论： could hardly vote against it without looking like liberals 这几乎等价于could NOT vote against it WITHOUT looking like liberals
这里的double negation 表示的意思是强势的肯定。
如果投否决票就一定会看起来像是自由派分子。 （所以不会去投票否决）
A setback from the courts 各级法院的不利判决

引用 林忆纾 2011-8-4 21:09

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感谢Chen老师给一如既往的悉心点评！小弟拜首！
----------------------
1.

state universities指的是州立大学。

改正！
2. it would be best if they were not undereducated, vulnerable, and afraid of the cops
这句话我和同学讨论后，觉得not是否定undereducated, vulnerable,然后怕cops
这种理解是不是有偏差？
3

could hardly vote against it without looking like liberals

是不是说，如果遇到双否定形式的句型分析，都可以转化为虚拟语气？（比如“如何。。。就。。。）

多谢Chen老师！

引用 yannanchen 2011-8-4 21:15

“I would like people to come forward and report serious crimes,”
这是什么， 这就是not afraid of cops， 发现犯罪行为，就报警， 不因为自己是非法移民，就担心， 就怕警察， 就不敢报告。

引用 林忆纾 2011-8-4 21:16

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是不是说，如果遇到双否定形式的句型分析，都可以转化为虚拟语气？ “都”——很可怕。  

  not undereducated， not vulnerable and not afraid of the cops  发表于 1 分钟前

1.Chen老师见笑了！这个句子想了老半天也没想出来，翻出来了，还是不满意，拗口！可能是基本功的问题吧！

2. 了然！

引用 yannanchen 2011-8-4 21:26

点评林忆纾  可是这句话有歧义，我当时推敲是如果实行racial profiling的话，illegal immigrant怎么好意思开口，把report的的是行为者想成普通百姓 。  发表于 1 分钟前 删除

请细读我的评论。 何谓pragmatic？就是承认已经有了非法移民， 在此条件下， 他们如果能做到三不， 那就最好。

引用 林忆纾 2011-8-4 21:38

本帖最后由 林忆纾 于 2011-8-4 21:39 编辑

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请细读我的评论。 何谓pragmatic？就是承认已经有了非法移民， 在此条件下， 他们如果能做到三不， 那就最好。

有理有理！
Chen老师，小弟想请教个题目外问题，您一般阅读、批改“E-C”类文章是从“中文译文——意思准确性，流畅性——整体结构结构” 进行分析地么

这句话的点评和我最近翻的东西总结出的感悟颇像，比如翻译“泰茹·科尔”那篇，一开始没大读懂，但是仔细读完第一段第一、二句话着手，很快后面的几句就迎刃而解了。下面的无非也是这种“第一句总结--后面余下的几乎就是例子或者描写” 。

您这段点评给我感觉就是，您分析完字词句后，再跳出来，从结构出发，进行第二层分析。

还望Chen老师不吝赐教，小弟再拜首！！！

引用 yannanchen 2011-8-4 22:06

评无定法啊。
我一般先快速通读原文，然后细读某段原文，再读该段译文， 比较印象的不同。 如果相差不大， 就放过去。 相差大了， 就开始评论。 语言上的评论比较简单， 难的是背景。 很多背景对我们都是新东西。 所以我也学了很多。
更难的是分析， 最难的是发现原文的错漏。
最大的收获来自跟网友的辩论。这强迫自己加深理解， 强迫自己用大家都能理解的方式解释。

引用 林忆纾 2011-8-4 22:12

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非常感谢！向您看齐！

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