[2012.03.31] 对核战争发自良心的反对者

引用 Dezazer 2012-3-31 07:59

抢占sf

引用 nayilus 2012-3-31 08:53

挑一个刺

Many of the attendees had the ear of their national governments.
许多与会者把会议的信息转达给了他们各自国家的政府
感觉 have the ear of 没有完全译出，
许多与会者的意见都被各自国家的政府所重视 或
许多与会者在各自的国家政府内都有很大的发言权 等意思，具体用词汤兄斟酌

引用 Medea 2012-3-31 12:18

没什么太可挑的，只找了一段相关资料：

奥本海默核爆时的感言：
We knew the world would not be the same
我们知道世界不会和过去一样了
A few people laughed
少数人笑
A few people cried,
少数人哭泣
Most people were silent.
剩下的人都是沉默
I remembered
我记得
The line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
那条印度教中的教义，那《大神圣歌》
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince
毗瑟努（三步神） 试着去说服王子
That he should do his duty
去尽他应尽的本分
And to impress him
为了让他铭记
Takes on his multi-armed form and says,
毗瑟努显现他的千臂然后说
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
“现在我成为死亡本身，那无尽世界的摧毁者”
I suppose we all thought that
我猜想我们都想过这个问题
One way or another.
不同方式罢了

橡树岭的一群人后来疯了不少，自杀了不少，实在可惜……不过还好，不是德国和日本先发明了原子弹

引用 zhangmeisi 2012-3-31 13:20

回复 悠悠万事97 的帖子

A friendship with Bertrand Russell, a British philosopher, led to the founding of the Pugwash conferences on nuclear disarmament.
他与英国哲学家伯兰特•罗素（Bertrand Russell）相交莫逆，导致他创建了主张核裁军的帕格沃什（Pugwash）科学与世界事务会议。
（感觉“导致他创建了..这个“导致”用得不太好，导致一般应该是说导致不好的结果吧，换一个词，比如“促使他..”怎样？

scientists—particularly nuclear scientists—were uniquely suited to grapple with the problems of the nuclear-armed world which they had helped bring into being.
科学家，特别是核科学家，非常适宜于尝试解决他们亲手参与造成的核武世界的问题。
感觉“uniquely”没表现出来，加一个“恰恰”改成：

恰恰是科学家，特别是核科学家，非常适宜于尝试解决他们亲手参与造成的核武世界的问题。
如何？

引用 Wesyman 2012-3-31 17:32

咳，我没别的可挑剔的了，"我们现在都他妈的是狗娘养的"感觉改成“我们现在都他妈是狗娘养的”自然些

引用 contrary 2012-3-31 19:39

the programme’s director 该项目领导者
项目用负责人较好

the real point was not to pre-empt the Nazis—whose own atomic-bomb project had got nowhere
制造原子弹的真正目的不是提前抹杀纳粹的核能力——他们的原子弹项目并无真正进展
pre-empt the Nazis抢在纳粹前头拥有核武；真正进展-实质性进展

and resolved to put his expertise to more humane use.
决心以他的专业知识为更人道的目的服务
决心以他的专业知识为更为人道的事业作贡献

Andrew Brown’s biography traces the history of both Rotblat as a man and Pugwash as a group.
安德鲁•布朗的传记追溯了罗伯拉特个人和帕格沃什这个组织的历史。
traces 在此不取追溯，应是记述

Acronyms, committees and minor players come thick and fast.
缩略简写、委员会和不那么重要的人物在书中比比皆是。
缩略简写-缩写；比比皆是我觉得只能体现thick，不能表现 fast

The idea behind Pugwash   成立该组织的想法是
该组织的理念/宗旨是

were uniquely suited to grapple with the problems of the nuclear-armed world which they had helped bring into being.
特别适宜于尝试解决他们亲手参与造成的核武世界的问题。
uniquely suited to 我认为“最适合”更好；they had helped bring into being 他们一手造成的

They understood the details and were prone to thinking bold thoughts.
他们清楚事情的详情，倾向于大胆思考。
更容易有大胆的想法。

差2段 回头再来

引用 echo.chan 2012-4-1 16:15

Nuclear warfare 核战争

Conscientious objector 发自良心的反对者---今天头很晕，发自良心的反对，可以；但是反对者，怎么读怎么怪
The conscience of Joseph Rotblat 约瑟夫•罗伯拉特的良心
        
A disarming son of a bitch 核裁军怪杰

Keeper of the Nuclear Conscience: The Life and Work of Joseph Rotblat. By Andrew Brown. Oxford University Press; 347 pages; $29.95 and £18.99. Buy from Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk
《核良知的守护者：约瑟夫•罗伯拉特（Joseph Rotblat）的生平与事业》。安德鲁•布朗著。牛津大学出版社出版，347页；售价：29.95美元/18.99英镑。点击Amazon.com,或Amazon.co.uk 网购。

MANY of the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project, America’s programme to build an atom bomb during the second world war, had misgivings about their work. After the detonation of the first test bomb in 1945, Robert Oppenheimer, the programme’s director, later claimed to have recalled a line from Hindu scripture---印度教的经文，不会有那么多疑义: “I am become death, destroyer of worlds.” His colleague Kenneth Bainbridge was pithier: “now we’re all sons of bitches,” he mutter ed.
许多参与了美国二战期间的原子弹制造项目——曼哈顿计划——的科学家对他们的工作心存忧虑。1945年第一颗原子弹试爆成功后，该项目领导者罗伯特•奥本海默（Robert Oppenheimer）后来声称他曾记起了印度圣经中的一句话：“吾为死神，令诸世界毁灭。”他的同事肯尼斯•拜因布里奇（Kenneth Bainbridge）更直截了当地？？？低声道：“我们现在都他妈是狗娘养的。”

Joseph Rotblat, a Polish-born physicist, had stronger reservations than most. He had been disturbed to 漏译？ overhear the American general in charge of the project admit that the real point was not to pre-empt the Nazis—whose own atomic-bomb project had got nowhere—but to intimidate the Soviets, the Americans’ wartime allies. In 1944 Rotblat left the programme to return to Britain, where he had taken refuge from occupied Poland, and resolved to put his expertise to more humane use. He swapped theoretical physics for the medical kind and began a life of vigorous opposition to nuclear weapons. A friendship with Bertrand Russell, a British philosopher, led to the founding of the Pugwash conferences on nuclear disarmament.

波兰出生的物理学家约瑟夫•罗伯拉特比大多数人持有更多的保留意见。他曾无意听到负责该项目的美国将军承认：制造原子弹的真正目的不是提前pre-empt--抹杀？纳粹的核能力——他们的原子弹项目并无真正进展；而是要恐吓美国的战时盟国苏联。1944年罗伯拉特退出了这个项目，回到他在波兰被德国占领时流亡的国度英国---看完彻底晕了，决心以他的专业知识为更人道的目的服务。他把自己的理论物理知识用于医学，并开始了积极反对核武器的人生之路。他与英国哲学家伯兰特•罗素（Bertrand Russell）相交莫逆，这让他创建了主张核裁军的帕格沃什（Pugwash）科学与世界事务会议。

Andrew Brown’s biography traces the history of both Rotblat as a man and Pugwash as a group. That dual focus is occasionally jarring—at one stage he moves from a discussion about test animals in Rotblat’s London hospital to a sweeping history of attempts to ban nuclear testing. Acronyms, committees and minor players come thick and fast. Readers can expect to make frequent trips to Wikipedia.
安德鲁•布朗的传记追溯了罗伯拉特个人和帕格沃什这个组织的历史。这两个写作中心有时有---时有冲突冲突：他曾在讨论了伦敦的罗伯拉特医院里的试验动物后直接切换到试图禁止核试验的概括历史上。缩略简写、委员会和不那么重要的人物在书中比比皆是。要读懂这本书，读者大概需要时常查阅维基百科。

But the story itself is good enough to shine through. The idea behind Pugwash (named for the remote hamlet in Nova Scotia where the early meetings were held) was that scientists—particularly nuclear scientists—were uniquely suited to grapple with the problems of the nuclear-armed world which they had helped bring into being. They understood the details and were prone to thinking bold thoughts. As an international scientific group, Pugwash was a useful counterpart to the fearful nationalism shaping politics. Delegates debated the theory of nuclear deterrence, pondered the potential damage of a nuclear war, and agitated for disarmament and the abolition of nuclear weapons.
但故事本身很好，足以让人理解得很清楚。帕格沃什得名于加拿大新斯科舍的一个偏远渔村，早期会议就是在那里举行的。成立该组织的想法是：恰恰是科学家，尤其是核科学家，特别适宜于尝试解决他们亲手参与造成的核武世界的问题。他们清楚事情的详情，倾向于大胆思考。帕格沃什是一个国际性的科学组织，是与令人惧怕的民族主义塑造的政治互为补充的---我觉得类似此消彼长的关系，而不是互补，民族主义在这儿起码不是褒义有益团体。各国代表在会议上就核威慑理论展开辩论，仔细思考核战争的潜在危害，鼓动裁减与废止核武器。

For Rotblat, though, these were only partial victories. Throughout his life, his goal remained a world free of nuclear weapons. His experience of the second world war had a lasting impact (his wife may have been murdered at Belzec, an early Nazi death camp). He was not convinced by the argument that the threat of nuclear weapons would ultimately prevent war. The logic of deterrence, and later of mutually assured destruction—which presumes that war between nuclear-armed nations is impossible, because the mutual annihilation ensures that neither side could win—applies only to rational actors. Had Hitler had the bomb, Rotblat argued, “his last order from the bunker in April 1945 would have been to use it on London even if it meant terrible retribution to Germany. This would have been part of his philosophy of Götterdämmerung.”
但这些对于罗伯拉特来说只不过是不完全---局部的胜利。他终其一生的目标一直是一个没有核武器的世界。他在二战中的经历对他有持续的影响，他的夫人可能就死于纳粹的早期死亡集中营贝尔塞克。 他不相信核武器的威胁最终可以防止战争的说法。所谓相互确保毁灭论认定核国家之间不可能发生战争，因为双方会同时灰飞烟灭，这让任何一方都无法取胜。他认为这种理论的逻辑和在此之前的核威慑的逻辑只对有理性的人有效。罗伯阿特认为，如果希特勒有核武器，“他在1945年4月发自坑道中的最后一道命令会是对伦敦使用之，即使这意味着德国会遭受可怕的报复也在所不惜。这会是他《诸神的黄昏》式哲学的一部分。”

引用 judycapricorn 2012-4-1 23:42

mark

引用 悠悠万事97 2012-4-3 22:32

回复 echo.chan 的帖子

Conscientious objector 发自良心的反对者---今天头很晕，发自良心的反对，可以；但是反对者，怎么读怎么怪
你有何建议？

later claimed to have recalled a line from Hindu scripture---印度教的经文，不会有那么多疑义: “I am become death, destroyer of worlds.” His colleague Kenneth Bainbridge was pithier: “now we’re all sons of bitches,” he mutter ed.
该项目领导者罗伯特•奥本海默（Robert Oppenheimer）后来声称他曾记起了印度圣经中的一句话：“吾为死神，令诸世界毁灭。”他的同事肯尼斯•拜因布里奇（Kenneth Bainbridge）更直截了当地？？？低声道：“我们现在都他妈是狗娘养的。”
pithier或许用“更精辟地”好些。
“印度教的经文，不会有那么多疑义”[color=Blue]嗯，good

Joseph Rotblat, a Polish-born physicist, had stronger reservations than most. He had been disturbed to 漏译？嗯，是的。

波兰出生的物理学家约瑟夫•罗伯拉特比大多数人持有更多的保留意见。他曾无意听到负责该项目的美国将军承认：制造原子弹的真正目的不是提前pre-empt--抹杀？赶在纳粹之前制出纳粹的核能力——他们的原子弹项目并无真正进展；而是要恐吓美国的战时盟国苏联。1944年罗伯拉特退出了这个项目，回到他在波兰被德国占领时流亡的国度英国---看完彻底晕了，哈哈，去医院了没？拟加修改

That dual focus is occasionally jarrin个安德鲁•布朗的传记追溯了罗伯拉特个人和帕格沃什这个组织的历史。这两个写作中心有时有---时有冲突嗯哪

帕格沃什是一个国际性的科学组织，是与令人惧怕的民族主义塑造的政治互为补充的---我觉得类似此消彼长的关系，而不是互补，民族主义在这儿起码不是褒义考虑修改有益团体。

但这些对于罗伯拉特来说只不过是不完全---局部的胜利。
我觉得局部在这里不够好，“不完全”与后面“他终其一生的目标”对应

引用 悠悠万事97 2012-4-3 22:40

回复 contrary 的帖子

the programme’s director 该项目领导者
项目用负责人较好
嗯哪

the real point was not to pre-empt the Nazis—whose own atomic-bomb project had got nowhere
制造原子弹的真正目的不是提前抹杀纳粹的核能力——他们的原子弹项目并无真正进展
pre-empt the Nazis抢在纳粹前头拥有核武；真正进展-实质性进展
改了一下

and resolved to put his expertise to more humane use.
决心以他的专业知识为更人道的目的服务
决心以他的专业知识为更为人道的事业作贡献
嗯，再想想

Andrew Brown’s biography traces the history of both Rotblat as a man and Pugwash as a group.
安德鲁•布朗的传记追溯了罗伯拉特个人和帕格沃什这个组织的历史。
traces 在此不取追溯，应是记述
再仔细读了几遍，觉得尚可

Acronyms, committees and minor players come thick and fast.
缩略简写、委员会和不那么重要的人物在书中比比皆是。
缩略简写-缩写；比比皆是我觉得只能体现thick，不能表现 fast
来得又多又快？

The idea behind Pugwash   成立该组织的想法是
该组织的理念/宗旨是
good

引用 wharton323 2012-4-6 08:46

Conscientious objector
原译:发自良心的反对者

评: 试试直译:从义反核者

引用 wharton323 2012-4-6 08:54

a line from Hindu scripture: “I am become death, destroyer of worlds.”
原译:印度教的教义中的一句话：“吾为死神，令诸世界毁灭。”
评：
1）“教义”不等于“经文”；
2）am become (沙翁时代英语？）= have become

引用 wharton323 2012-4-6 09:01

His colleague Kenneth Bainbridge was pithier: “now we’re all sons of bitches,” he mutter ed.
原译：他的同事肯尼斯•拜因布里奇更直截了当地？？？低声道：“我们现在都他妈是狗娘养的。”
评：
1）pithier没有“直截了当”含意，直译“言简意赅”。
2）sons of bitches不一定是骂人的脏话，可译成“不法之子”之类的？

引用 wharton323 2012-4-6 09:20

He swapped theoretical physics for the medical kind and began a life of vigorous opposition to nuclear weapons.
原译：他把自己的理论物理知识用于医学，并开始了积极反对核武器的人生之路。
评：swap没有“把。。。用于”含意。此处可否译作”放下理论物理，拿起医疗学“之类的？

引用 wharton323 2012-4-6 09:29

As an international scientific group, Pugwash was a useful counterpart to the fearful nationalism shaping politics.
原译：帕格沃什是一个国际性的科学组织，是与令人惧怕的民族主义塑造的政治对应的有益团体。

评：
1）shaping politics = 影响政治事务
试译：
作为一家国际性科学团体，它有助于对应影响政治事务的可怕的民族主义。

引用 wharton323 2012-4-6 09:51

Over the years the Pugwash conferences evolved into a crucial source of backdoor communications between the superpowers, penetrating the fog of mistrust that characterised the cold war.
原译：帕格沃什会议逐年成长为一个关键场合，让超级大国得以穿越冷战特有的不信任迷雾私下交流。

评：
1）penetrating的主语是Pugwash。
2）fog=浓雾， mist=薄雾。有趣的是，前者反倒没有后者difficult to penetrate（迷雾）的含意。
3）characterised the cold war是“冷战的特点”而不是“特有”。
4）source=源头。此处有“牵头作用”含意，或可译作“引发”之类的。

引用 悠悠万事97 2012-4-7 04:30

回复 wharton323 的帖子

根据以下从维基查到的信息：Rotblat was determined that his research should have only peaceful ends, and so became interested in the medical and biological uses of radiation. In 1949 he became Professor of Physics at St Bartholomew's Hospital ("Barts"), London,[14] shortly before receiving his PhD from Liverpool in 1950. He also worked on several official bodies connected with nuclear physics, and arranged a major travelling exhibition for schools on civil nuclear energy, the Atom Train.

At St Bartholomew's Rotblat worked on the effects of radiation on living organisms, especially on aging and fertility. This led him to an interest in nuclear fallout, especially Strontium 90 and the safe limits of ionising radiation.[7] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rotblat]

我认为还是把物理运用于医学。

引用 悠悠万事97 2012-4-7 04:43

回复 wharton323 的帖子

Over the years the Pugwash conferences evolved into a crucial source of backdoor communications between the superpowers, penetrating the fog of mistrust that characterised the cold war.
原译：帕格沃什会议逐年成长为一个关键场合，让超级大国得以穿越冷战特有的不信任迷雾私下交流。

评：
1）penetrating的主语是Pugwash。
2）fog=浓雾， mist=薄雾。有趣的是，前者反倒没有后者difficult to penetrate（迷雾）的含意。
3）characterised the cold war是“冷战的特点”而不是“特有”。
4）source=源头。此处有“牵头作用”含意，或可译作“引发”之类的。

1）、4）很赞同；
2）感觉这里带有比喻色彩，似乎没有必要过分认真。
3）容我考虑一下。

又：你的意见甚为中肯，但我是出于偶然机会发现的；以后能否用“回复”，以保证我可及时看到。

引用 wharton323 2012-4-7 10:32

回复 悠悠万事97 的帖子

我认为还是把物理运用于医学。

评：我认为，翻译是解释原文，而不是找资料来解释译文。谢谢你的回复。

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