[2012.08.11] 荣耀与希望

引用 yannanchen 2012-8-16 00:12

本帖最后由 yannanchen 于 2012-8-16 00:19 编辑

杨绛的翻译似乎跳过了这句：The hand that mocked them, and the heart, that fed;
这是一个众说纷纭，争议不止的句子。 谁的hand， 谁的heart？王者，还是雕刻家？

请参考：


Interpreting the Sonnet

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: “Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert… Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

These first 7 lines are deceptively straightforward. The sonnet tells of meeting a traveler who describes the “vast and trunkless legs” of an otherwise collapsed statue. Near the feet and legs is a shattered visage (the statue’s shattered head). The lips tell of a martial figure – cold and sneering.  From there, a third figure enters the sonnet. First is the ‘I‘ of the sonnet, second is the ‘traveler’, and third is the sculptor – the artist who must have read “those passions” well. There is an interesting juxtaposition in Shelley’s use of the word “survive” which means “to live and remain alive” in reference to “lifeless things”. What does Shelley mean? It is a curious ambiguity that is, perhaps, not meant to be resolved – purposefully ambiguous.

•Another reader, Thaddeus Joseph Stone, just pointed out (Jan. 18, 2012) that the meaning of  these lines makes sense if Shelley  means that “those passions” survive in our own day — they “yet survive” — those same passions that are stamped “on these lifeless things”. That makes perfect sense to me, especially since Shelley had strong political leanings in his own day. Some of his most scathing poems are critical of the aristocracy and staunchly libertarian.  I think it’s a very good way to interpret these lines. In this sense, Shelley knows full well that the tyrannical and cruel passions of Ozymandias live on in others. His sonnet, in this sense, serves as a warning to those who think there’s any future or immortality in such politics.
Those passions survive on “these lifeless things”.

On the one hand the statue is a lifeless thing; but, on the other, the passions of Ozymandias survive through the skill of the sculptor – in contradiction to the sonnet’s usual interpretation. Is this what Ozymandias intended? Even the answer to that is ambiguous. And what or who has truly survived? Was it Ozymandias, or was it the art, the skill of the sculptor? Both? The trochaic stamped only emphasizes the durability of what has survived. Perhaps there’s a clue in the next line:

The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.

There is tremendous compression (elliptic) in this eighth line. Since it’s the shattered visage that the traveler has been and is describing, the hand must be the artist’s, rather than Ozymandias’. (I’ve noticed, on the Internet at least, that many readers misinterpret the hand and heart as a reference to Ozymandias.)

•The frown, the wrinkled lip and sneer refer to the shattered visage of Ozymandias.
•The hand and heart refer to the sculptor.
•Note: This is only my interpretation. Much more discussion of this interpretation and what else the lines may mean follows in the comment section. If you really want to get into the nitty-gritty of this poem’s meaning, read the comments and decide for yourself.
This is important because it informs the ambiguity of the earlier lines. If the arrogance and cruelty of Ozymandias “survive” on those lifeless things, it is because of the heart and hand of the artist. Art has given them life, not the arrogance or pride of Ozymandias. It is the art that has survived and continues to communicate to the traveler and to the “I” of the sonnet. Or another way of thinking of it is that the artist’s hand mocked the tyrant’s pretenses which his heart (his artistic passions) fed through his stone work. The most insightful interpretation of the sonnet that I could find (online at least) was by Christopher Nield, A Reading of ‘Ozymandias’ by Percy Bysshe Shelley, for the Epoch Times.

What we discern in the face is a coded message. The sculptor, seemingly an instrument of the state, has “mocked” the all-powerful chieftain, meaning both to imitate and ridicule. Lines 6 to 8 are grammatically ambiguous, and different meanings are possible, but one interpretation is that the artist’s “heart,” his sense of compassion and morality, still throbs in the otherwise lifeless head. In other words, love and truth ultimately triumph over cruel, autocratic intelligence. In a way, this story is the reverse of the Bamiyan Buddhas, whose beauty was brought down by tyranny…. Despite the desolation of Shelley’s scene, there is a hope here of emotional and artistic continuity. Basic human nature dictates that, despite differences in time and culture, our gestures can be read and recognized by future generations in our finest cultural artifacts.

What does Shelley mean by the heart that fed? Heart is a synecdochic figure. We can say that someone has heart and we universally interpret that as meaning that the person is compassionate. We use phrases like heartfelt or tender-hearted. If a meal or person is robust, we call them hearty. Amidst so much desolation, it’s hard for me to read Shelley’s line as a reference to Ozymandias’s heart. But anyway, nearly all analyses gloss over this line and I suspect it’s because most don’t what to risk interpreting it. I like Nield’s interpretation and I would take it a step further. Shelley’s line is incredibly compressed (elliptical) if only due to the demands of the form. It’s the only mention of something palpably alive and human in the entirety of the sonnet. It is the heart – the synechdocic figure of the human soul, compassion, and capacity to empathize – that is at the heart of the sonnet and that is alive within the sculptor.

•Note: The word mock has, in its older sense, the meaning of mimic [Shakespeare Lexicon p. 732]. This meaning survives in modern times in the more neutral “mock up”. A “mock up” doesn’t carry the sense of derision or contempt associated with mock. So… Ozymandias’ passions survive in the artist’s “mock up”. (This isn’t to say that Shelley wasn’t aware of the words double meaning.) More importantly, the word fed or feed also had the meaning: “to entertain or indulge” [Shakespeare Lexicon, p. 409]. So, in this sense, the artist’s heart was “entertaining” and indulging Ozymandias’ cruel passions – entertain in the sense of tolerate. [My thanks to Ralph for encouraging me to more closely examine this line - see our comments below and Ralph's alternate interpretation of this line.]
In this sense, the heart is what fed the hand – the hand that mocked and gave life to lifelessness through compassion and morality – through art. It is because of the human heart that anything at all survived and continues to survive. And perhaps Shelley means to instruct us that art is the highest and most durable manifestation of the human heart.

And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!’
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

The final sestet is fairly straightforward, in comparison to the octave, but the genius is in the irony. Ozymandias’ mighty words, rather than attesting to Ozymandias’ immortal splendor, affirm the very opposite of his intentions. The arrogance of man is impermanent. The accouterments of Ozymandias’ power and wealth have crumbled into a desolate ruin! Look my works and despair!

引用 happyJoan 2012-8-16 00:15

真得好长
2段
Even after the quirky but widely praised opening ceremony, with its cameo by the queen
奥运开幕式有点古怪但广受好评，连女王都成了它的配角
奥运开幕式有点古怪但包括女王出演的短片在内的整个开幕式广受好评。
Cameo既有客串又有短片的意思，个人觉得如果翻成配角后面的prep.应用of

3
nor merely in the sort of obscure disciplines in which, for two weeks every four years, millions are fleetingly interested.
每四年来的两周内，数百万人在短时间内感兴趣的也不仅仅是那晦涩难懂的比赛规则
在这每四年一次，为期短短两周的奥运会，数百万人感兴趣的也不仅仅是那晦涩难懂的比赛规则
4
Drafting in the army after the security-staffing fiasco has reinforced its reputation as the country’s most competent outfit, at least when it comes to domestic mishaps.

在保安人员严重匮乏的情况下，英国从军队抽调了人手，增强了保安人员“全国最有能力的团队”这一声望——至少在处理国内麻烦时的确如此。
its这里是否应指军队？

5
Even at the best of times, Britons tend to be uncomfortable with patriotism, finding it hard to disentangle from nationalism and xenophobia.
即使是在最好的情况下，英国人往往都会对爱国主义感到不自在，他们认为很难把爱国主义和民族主义与仇外情绪区分开来。
times直接翻成时代？
联想到乱世时对爱国主义感到不自在是很正常的，但和平年代本没并要。不知道是不是想多了
5
a sort of fatalistic stoicism that risks becoming self-fulfilling
这种宿命论式的坚忍有可能成为一种自我实现
这种宿命论式的坚忍不惜成为一种自我实现

倒数第2
it is likely to come only in the usefully unverifiable form of a general image reboot.
这种回报也可能只会以一种整体映像重启的形式出现，而这种形式极为难以核实。
这种回报也可能只会重新提升整体的形象，这非常有用但却无法核实。

引用 yannanchen 2012-8-16 00:46

copy and paste

4）The hand…句，是一个省略句，大概是雪莱作诗时为了音节的缘故。首先，mock是一个双关意义的词，即表示雕刻人的临摹，也隐喻对貌似威严的法老的蔑视和嘲笑。中文翻译时，往往因为不能兼顾双层含义，而使原诗的含义丧失一部分。无奈这里只能取其一了。Heart 究竟是谁的？从整体看，lifeless things （石头）已经从侧面讽刺了法老的coldness (前面的 cold command)，而与之形成鲜明对比的，是有生命的石匠，虽然他的音容笑貌没有因为被雕刻在石头上而“万古长存”（但最终也成为尘沙），但是，这正是雪莱巧妙讽刺的地方。是这些有生命的、有手、有心的平民工匠，才让那个没心没肺的统治者存留，那么不难想象，真正能长久的并不是法老和他统治的王朝。最后几行也影射了雪莱相信只有诗人和文字，而不是政客、政权、王国，才是世界上真正永存的智者和领袖。全句以完整的文字释写出来，应该是：（passions）survive the sculptor’s hand that mocked them (passions) as well as his heart that is fed (with the passions to be graved into the sculpture). Feed 本意是为。。。提供食物、养活。由此而来，它表示提供最基本的需求以保证某人、某件事物得以生存和发展（to provide what is necessary for the existence or development of）。所以，正是工匠对法老的细致观察、深刻了解（明鉴精了，心中充满对法老的了解），才会使他用独具匠心，把这些神态和情感惟妙惟肖地赋予石雕。Survive 这里是个及物动词，即比。。。活得长久，后面的宾语是hand和heart；中文翻译处理成两行一句，属于形断意连吧。

引用 nayilus 2012-8-16 01:33

Not just in the so-called “sitting-down sports” in which it often succeeds, and in which, cycling aside, the team tends to be toff-heavy (surely only in Britain is the class and educational background of medallists so exhaustively scrutinised); nor merely in the sort of obscure disciplines in which, for two weeks every four years, millions are fleetingly interested.
这句分号前后并列，主干是英国这次获胜的不仅仅是那些贵族运动员的“坐姿项目”，也不仅仅是晦涩难懂的偏门运动。

mixed-race 混血

relatively undignified 不是说足球难等大雅之堂，而是说英国足球的成绩并不好，经常在大赛中被淘汰

believe it when you see it 谚语，是说这件事难以相信，就是“要我亲眼看到我才相信”的意思
believe it when, and if, you see it 对该谚语修改，加大了怀疑的成分，“要我亲眼看到我才相信，前提是我能看到这样的情形”的意思，

引用 敛刃 2012-8-16 10:34

happyJoan 发表于 2012-8-16 00:15
真得好长
2段
Even after the quirky but widely praised opening ceremony, with its cameo by the queen

感谢意见第三点那里已经结合楼下na版意见综合修改，最后两点已经修改，特别是最后一点比我的原译好很多

Even after the quirky but widely praised opening ceremony, with its cameo by the queen
奥运开幕式有点古怪但广受好评，连女王都成了它的配角
奥运开幕式有点古怪但包括女王出演的短片在内的整个开幕式广受好评。
Cameo既有客串又有短片的意思，个人觉得如果翻成配角后面的prep.应用of

我翻的时候查过：
cameo:
1. a small part in a film/movie or play for a famous actor
(电影、戏剧中）名演员出演的配角
2. a short piece of writing that gives a good description of sb/sth
小品文
3. a piece of jewellery that consists of a raised design, often of a head, on a background of a different colour
浮雕珠宝饰物
其中我认为义项1比较符合，而义项1应当侧重于“名演员演配角”而非“出演”这个动作。我觉得女王可以说是一位“名演员”，而奥运可以说是一部“大戏”，伦敦开幕式中女王跳伞，可以说只是演了一闪而过的“配角”，人们主要的注意力还是集中在开幕式本身上。所以译为“奥运开幕式有点古怪但广受好评，连女王都成了它的配角”，个人译法~

Drafting in the army after the security-staffing fiasco has reinforced its reputation as the country’s most competent outfit, at least when it comes to domestic mishaps.

在保安人员严重匮乏的情况下，英国从军队抽调了人手，增强了保安人员“全国最有能力的团队”这一声望——至少在处理国内麻烦时的确如此。
its这里是否应指军队？

我的理解，这里 its 还是指代前面的 security-staff。试想，如果不从军队抽调人手，保安人员必定不够，这样就会出乱子（可结合后面的 domestic mishaps），保安人员也就会广受骂名。既然抽调了人手，就因此保证了保安人员的数目，从而 reinfored its reputation。

Even at the best of times, Britons tend to be uncomfortable with patriotism, finding it hard to disentangle from nationalism and xenophobia.
即使是在最好的情况下，英国人往往都会对爱国主义感到不自在，他们认为很难把爱国主义和民族主义与仇外情绪区分开来。
times直接翻成时代？
联想到乱世时对爱国主义感到不自在是很正常的，但和平年代本没并要。不知道是不是想多了

“at the best of times”是英语中的一个习语

at the best of times
IDM
even when the circumstances are very good
即使在最好的情况下

以上。感谢指正交流

引用 游客 2012-8-16 11:57

发人深省：“长寿并不是衡量人类价值的唯一标准：尤塞恩•博尔特在十秒之内赢得了百米长跑冠军，但这短短几秒令人相当振奋。一个国家的寿命也和人的寿命一样，是由一个个瞬间所组成。即使这些鎏金的瞬间并未带来任何改变，它们也值得我们去珍惜。”[tthread=alantien, 田昆]http://app.qlogo.cn/mbloghead/a74dfd1117a92d4d8402[/tthread]

引用 幸福、_找不到 2012-8-16 14:04

double-dipping economy
经济左右摇摆不定
经济二次探底 或者 经济陷入二次衰退？

联合政府充满敌意
政府 敌意？
试译：联合政府内部针锋相对

这种宿命论式的坚忍不惜成为一种自我实现
请教什么是宿命论式的坚忍呢？
1.fatalism: philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do.[1] Included in this is that man has no power to influence the future, or indeed, his own actions.[2] This belief is very similar to predeterminism.
2TStoicism :the modern usage as "person who represses feelings or endures patiently"
然后结合后面的self-fulfilling，我觉得是说他们的宿命式无所作为变成了追求自我实现

do pride straight
是不是说直接表明自己的骄傲？

偏颇
建议elaborate一下，让读者更明白


：比如地铁罢工、恐怖主义恐慌或是英国那糟糕的天气。
或天气恶劣


最后一段：
一个国家的寿命也和人的寿命一样
寿命？建议改为一生

引用 淘气包 2012-8-16 16:07

a drought-induced ban on householders using hoses
自来水管

Hose 在这里指的是花园浇水器，而不是自来水管。HOSE REEL 简称HOSE

引用 敛刃 2012-8-16 16:47

淘气包 发表于 2012-8-16 16:07
a drought-induced ban on householders using hoses
自来水管

A hose is a hollow tube designed to carry fluids from one location to another. Hoses are also sometimes called pipes (the word pipe usually refers to a rigid tube, whereas a hose is usually a flexible one), or more generally tubing. The shape of a hose is usually cylindrical (having a circular cross section).

Hose design is based on a combination of application and performance. Common factors are Size, Pressure Rating, Weight, Length, Straight hose or Coilhose and Chemical Compatibility.

Hoses are made from one or a combination of many different materials. Applications mostly use nylon, polyurethane, polyethylene, PVC, or synthetic or natural rubbers, based on the environment and pressure rating needed. In recent years, hoses can also be manufactured from special grades of polyethylene (LDPE and especially LLDPE). Other hose materials include PTFE (Teflon), stainless steel and other metals.

个人觉得还是译为自来水管比较合适。连日常生活用水都成问题的干旱地区人民，想必没有闲情去浇灌花园了

引用 李思 2012-8-16 19:13

求教：
toff-heavy的意思我在哪里都查不到，请问翻译成众多富家子弟是根据什么呢？

引用 敛刃 2012-8-16 19:31

李思 发表于 2012-8-16 19:13
求教：
toff-heavy的意思我在哪里都查不到，请问翻译成众多富家子弟是根据什么呢？

toff 是富家子弟、纨绔子弟的意思。名词A+heavy 构成复合形容词修饰名词B，表示名词B里面充满了A。所以译为“由众多富家子弟组成”

引用 李思 2012-8-16 20:04

本帖最后由 李思 于 2012-8-16 20:06 编辑

nor merely in the sort of obscure disciplines in which, for two weeks every four years, millions are fleetingly interested.   
应该翻译为：  也不是只在每四年一次、为期两周的运动会上才会引起数百万人在短时间内感兴趣的那些冷门项目（获得金牌）。

我觉得这样翻译上下文意思才通顺吧

引用 李思 2012-8-16 20:07

敛刃 发表于 2012-8-16 19:31
toff 是富家子弟、纨绔子弟的意思。名词A+heavy 构成复合形容词修饰名词B，表示名词B里面充满了A。所以译 ...

哦~~~~~茅塞顿开~~~~~
多谢~

引用 McFisher 2012-8-16 22:47

第一次上这个论坛，就看到大师的翻译了，受教了！

引用 敛刃 2012-8-16 22:54

McFisher 发表于 2012-8-16 22:47
第一次上这个论坛，就看到大师的翻译了，受教了！

不敢当……本人图样图森破，很傻很天真。“小师”都算不上……欢迎来到ECOCN共同学习进步

引用 skittos 2012-8-17 04:37

本帖最后由 skittos 于 2012-8-17 06:02 编辑

敛刃 发表于 2012-8-16 22:54
不敢当……本人图样图森破，很傻很天真。“小师”都算不上……欢迎来到ECOCN共同学习进步 ...

译得很好！吹毛求疵，扔几块砖：

1. London’s unexpectedly 【预料之外地，（这个词对贯穿全文的那种“转折”意义很重要，不可疏忽）】golden Olympics may not permanently change Britain. So what?



2. a drought-induced ban on householders using hoses
在降雨太少的地方，由于干旱，很多住户甚至无法使用自来水管。
-------------------------------------------------------------------
因干旱推出的限制使用浇水管的禁令

hose ：接水管，起延伸浇水的作用。一头接在自来水龙头上，把管子拖出需浇水地的长度，另一头再装上喷洒头。然后，自来水龙头一拧，viola！


下面这段：
In a conjunction surreal enough to inspire disbelieving exchanges between strangers, the country was afflicted by both floods and—would you credit it?—a drought-induced ban on householders using hoses.
降雨太多的地方受到了洪水的侵扰，而且——你相信吗？——在降雨太少的地方，由于干旱，很多住户甚至无法使用自来水管。这离奇得足以让两个陌生人疑惑地展开一场交谈。
-------------------------------------------
我的理解版本：一场离奇足以引发两个陌生人之间相互摇头咂舌：英国遭受了双重灾难，一边淹水，同时——你信不信——一边由于干旱推出了限使浇水管的禁令。（看来英国陌生人之间通常不爱攀谈）

引用 skittos 2012-8-17 04:59

本帖最后由 skittos 于 2012-8-17 05:06 编辑

3. This paradox united several of the nation’s favourite themes: the absurd caprices of bureaucracy; a sense that Britain somehow manages to cock things up that other countries do not; and rain.
这种矛盾现象同时包括了英国最热门的几个话题：官僚体制那种荒诞的反复无常；英国不知为何总是能够把事情搞砸，而别的国家就不会这样；以及降雨。
--------------------------------------------------
第1句 动词是United （组合在一起）而不是 included （包括了），why？自然矛盾现象不包括后面的话题，但引发了，串接了几个话题。
试：这一矛盾现象把英国最热门的几个话题串到了一起：......


4. Comeo by queen: 女王作为点缀装饰

引用 skittos 2012-8-17 05:45

本帖最后由 skittos 于 2012-8-17 05:54 编辑

The pride the country does take tends to be in plucky defeat (the unofficial anthem of England’s football team is the theme tune from “The Great Escape”), a sort of fatalistic stoicism 【无所奢求】 that risks becoming self-fulfilling 【自我满足】. During the Olympics, Britain found it could do pride straight. After an early worry about seeming to be too partisan (another issue unlikely to crop up in, say, the United States) the country crescendoed, like a table of diners singing “happy birthday” in a crowded restaurant.
让英国真正感到自豪的可能在于直面挫败（英格兰足球队的非官方队歌是《大逃亡》的主题曲）【注3】，这种宿命论式的坚忍不惜成为一种自我实现。在奥运期间，英国发现它可以为本国的尊严正名。该国早期曾担忧自己看起来会过于偏颇（这种担忧不大可能出现在美国等地），但之后英国的声音渐渐增强，就像拥挤的餐馆里有一群人围坐在餐桌前唱着《生日快乐》。
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stoicism [ˈstəʊɪˌsɪzəm] n. 1. indifference to pleasure and pain
self-fulfilling:  1. Achieving fulfillment as a result of having been expected or foretold: a self-fulfilling prophecy.

【我以为原译是否能把这段思路再梳理通畅一点?】试：英国所拥有的自豪感似乎来自直面挫败之中（...），这种宿命论式的无所奢求会导致自我感觉良好。而在奥运期间，英国却发现，它也可以从求胜中直接赢得自豪。奥运初期，它曾担忧自己是否过于偏颇（...)，之后其声音就强势起来，就像在拥挤的餐馆里，一群人围坐在餐桌前唱《生日快乐》。

【这段调侃了英国人惯于接受失败的心态，然而，unexpectedly，奥运中的登上奖台激发了他们的另一种激情，这就是 it also could do pride straight，他们也不仅仅只是“在失败中陶醉”了。一群英国人，终于在拥挤的奥运会场中，得以为本国英雄欢呼歌唱了。。。哦耶！尽管它也许只是昙花一现，but so what？ 】

引用 淘气包 2012-8-17 08:55

敛刃 发表于 2012-8-16 16:47
个人觉得还是译为自来水管比较合适。连日常生活用水都成问题的干旱地区人民，想必没有闲情去浇灌花园了 ...

I'M IN GARDEN TOOL LINE, HOSE IS MY MAINLY PRODUCT.
怎么会限制用自来水管呢。国外几乎家家户户都有花园的，他们都要浇花的呀。限制的应该是自来水接在管子上浇花，允许的是用水壶浇花，这样节水。
此乃我个人意见。

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